Mon, 26 Dec 2005

GNOME's dbus 0.60 transition done

Following up on my previous post, here's a new status update of the whole GNOME situation.

Very soon after posting that roadmap, the two steps in the process were completed, with the ftpmasters freeing dbus into experimental, and seb128 doing a round of GTK+ family uploads. No big problems have been detected in GTK+ 2.8 in unstable, so those bits are going very well.

As soon as dbus 0.60 hit experimental, both the KDE and GNOME camps got busy recompiling their stuff. KDE 3.5.0 moved from Alioth to experimental, and sjoerd got busy in a recompile quest to make sure GNOME was installable again in experimental. The dbus 0.60 transition in experimental was done in barely a few hours, and some extra dbus-using packages have been transitioning since then.

So, what's holding our unstable upload? We first need to wait for KDE 3.4 enter testing, thus clearing the major blocker for the C++ ABI transition. The number of packages involved in this is so big it's not even funny, so it's quite complicated. In short, the GNOME team is sitting on their hands watching some C++ fun. There are a few more news bits though.

Last night, there was a round of experimental updates, bringing most of the modules to their 2.12.2 versions (just 2 or 3 are missing now), and meta-gnome2 was again updated to support these versions. If you issue your usual aptitude install gnome-desktop-environment, you'll pull newer versions of most of the stuff, if that's the way you update your experimental packages. Also, the gnome package now supports gnome-screensaver. Give it a try, and be ready to purge xscreensaver if you're happy with it!

Please do us a favor and stop mentioning KDE together with future DBUS announces.

a) We don't adopt DBUS for 3.x series
b) We haven't decided yet
c) We don't intend to be told what we should do and what not

And by the way, it's KDE 3.5 and not 3.4. The official KDE 3.5 was released with DCOP as API and not DBUS. We are not going to support any of this stuff.

If you want to do your marketing talk then please do your own business and leave KDE out of this. We are sick reading all kind of GNOME marketing talk tied with KDE in it as well.

Please revisit your blog entry and update it with all parts of KDE removed in it. Make clear that you only talk about GNOME and not about KDE. You are not refering KDE in any ways or terms. You are not even developing for it or representing it.

Posted by x at Mon Dec 26 23:21:22 2005

Hey, x, take a chill pill.  Granted, he could have been clearer, but he didn't claim any of what you seem to accuse him of.  He didn't claim to be "developing for it or representing it".  He didn't try to "[tell KDE] what [they] should do and what not".  And this is neither "GNOME marketing talk" nor a "DBUS announce[ment]".

And calling for somebody to edit their blog to remove all references to a particular program that you don't like being mentioned?  Grow up.

Posted by AJ at Tue Dec 27 09:02:31 2005

Dear X,
Thanks for your comments. Now I'd be happy if you would accept my Kluebat. The following line is the Depends line of the kdebase-kio-plugins, included in Debian, and part of the kdebase source package. I think kdebase is kind of important for this KDE thing, is it?

Depends: kdelibs4c2a (>= 4:3.5.0-2), libc6 (>= 2.3.5-1), libdbus-1-2 (>= 0.60), libdbus-qt-1-1c2 (>= 0.60), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0.2), libhal-storage1, libhal1 (>= 0.5), libldap2 (>= 2.1.17-1), libopenexr2c2a (>= 1.2.2), libqt3-mt (>= 3:3.3.5), libsasl2 (>= 2.1.19), libsmbclient (>= 3.0.2a-1), libstdc++6 (>= 4.0.2-4), libxcursor1 (>> 1.1.2), zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.1), libsasl2-modules

As you might have noticed, there's a dependency on libhal1 and libdbus-1-2. Isn't that sweet?

Again, thanks for your comments, but next time, have in mind I probably know more about what the situation is in Debian than you, apparently.


Posted by Jordi at Tue Dec 27 10:15:48 2005

Jordi, you are forgetting something here. Just because you enforce the debian modules to depend on dbus and hal, doesn't mean that they are depending on it in the final official KDE release.

KDE 3 doesn't depend on DBUS at all. And the few bits that offer DBUS support are optional and not required. It's just there to offer people an option, so let's make an religion out of this and enforce the DBUS hype on it. To say the truth, the majority of KDE developers I've met had pretty good arguments to not use DBUS at all.

Also KDE 4 will have DBUS as option but still continues depending on DCOP from what I was told, there will be a layer offered to pass the stuff through DBUS somehow. I don't know the full details here since the arguments are shifting.

So debian could easily live without these dependencies and it probably makes the maintainance of these modules even easier if they don't depend on unnecessary things. Though if you enforce the dependency of some optional libraries only to propagate and enforce wide spread of DBUS by all possible means - ignoring whether the desktop depends on it or not, ignoring whether it's an future requirement or not.

Going back to KDE 3.4 here. KDE 3.x doesn't depend on DBUS and from the majority of people I know (including vast majority of KDE core developers too) none of them intend using or has DBUS installed.

The problem here is people like you, who are primarily thrilled supporting GNOME and work on projects like GNOME and DEBIAN who are thrilled by such new technology enforcing everything to be GNOME centric so you also enforce KDE to depend stuff specially written for GNOME to slowly undermine KDE's dominance and enforce GNOME everywhere.

This is plain showing disrespect to other peoples wishes, other peoples opinion and the demands and requirements of these people. Regardless whether they like it or not.

Posted by oGALAXYo at Tue Dec 27 14:37:51 2005

oGALAXYo: Again, you seem to be blaming Jordi for the fact that Debian's KDE is linked against D-BUS.  Why would he have anything to do with it?  Isn't that the job of the KDE maintainers?  Why aren't you blaming them?

And if you don't like it, then you should file a bug against the KDE package.  Interestingly, there is no bug asking for removal of D-BUS from KDE, but there is a bug asking for it to be upgraded, for the purposes of compiling another program (kpowersave).

Posted by AJ at Wed Dec 28 19:36:28 2005

AJ: thanks for your friendly comments. I sometimes wonder if idiots like oGo are the only readers of my blog...

Posted by Jordi at Sun Jan 1 23:25:14 2006

Don't worry Jordi, your work is greatly appreciated. 

I see now that the latest gnome-desktop-environment from experimental installs now (ref. comment in previous blog entry), great work!

Posted by Henrik at Mon Jan 2 09:29:47 2006

As a long time KDE user (under RH, MDK, SUSE) and a recent (in the last year) convert to Gnome (under Debian, Ubuntu, Vector) I've come up against a lot of this rivally between to the two desktop enviroments.  When I first started getting insulted for using Gnome over KDE in IRC channels I assumed it was just a mutal set of attacking each other that I'd just missed over the years of using Linux.  Though recently as I've started to pay more attention it seems that it is mainly the KDE camp that is doing the slander of Gnome and this can be seen in the average Gnome based /. story or even Linus having a stab. 

Why be such babies is the question I ask? The general Gnome userbase either ignores the insults or run with them (fix the flaws or present valid arguements against them) yet it continues.  In reality Linux (To Me(tm)) is all about choice and the fact that there are two major desktop enviroments that are completely different that newbies get exposed too is one of the biggest examples of that yet some(?) KDE users want to crush this.  Get over yourselves and let others enjoy the enviroment they like best or go back to Windows and enjoy your locked in lack of choice in how you use your desktop. 

Really I'm sick of the flaming (which when you look at it is what the KDE based posts in here are) and I thank the Gnome devs and Debian maintaners who put up with it and go to all the effort to make sure we get the latest version (before the next one is released? :P) without to much hassel to the end user. 

/me wanders off to update to KDE 3.5 and Gnome 2.12 and assume GNU where required

Posted by eps at Mon Jan 2 13:52:52 2006

oGalaxyO is a known troll, a former Gnome Foundation member and it's not related to KDE development at all.

Best regards

Posted by ... at Wed Jan 4 19:16:46 2006